Cliff Christl started gathering oral histories with former Packers and others associated with the team in 2000. Excerpts from those interviews were periodically posted between 2014-21 at www.packers.com, and others will be periodically posted in the future.
Former middle linebacker Jim Carter played for the Green Bay Packers early in their long, post-Lombardi losing spell and also during a period of brutal in-fighting among team officials, coaches and players.
A product of the University of Minnesota, Carter played fullback there in football and also lettered in hockey. Drafted in the third round in 1970, he played eight seasons for the Packers.
Carter started the final 10 games of his rookie season at left linebacker following an injury to three-time Associated Press All-Pro Dave Robinson, and then replaced 35-year-old Ray Nitschke at middle linebacker in his second season. Carter missed the 1971 opener with a hamstring injury but started the final 13 games as Nitschke sat the bench that season and the next.
Carter remained the starter through 1975, missed the '76 season with a broken arm, resumed his starting role in '77 and finished his career as a sub in '78.
Over Carter's seven seasons as a starter, the Packers finished with a winning record only once, and the disgruntled boobirds at Lambeau Field directed much of their wrath at him for taking Nitschke's job. Carter was booed regularly in pre-game introductions and just about any time he missed a tackle or allowed a pass completion, while also enduring "We want Nitschke" chants from fans during games.
Despite invitations from the Packers to return to Lambeau Field as an honorary captain after he had retired, Carter repeatedly declined, explaining, "If I ever went to Green Bay for an alumni game, I fear I'd get booed." Finally, in 2011, 33 years after he quit playing, Carter was introduced in pre-game ceremonies at Lambeau and received a warm ovation.
Many of Carter's coaches and teammates believed he deserved a better fate.
He served as the physical centerpiece of defenses that ranked second and sixth in the NFL in fewest yards allowed in 1972 and '76, was selected to play in the 1973 Pro Bowl and served as the Packers' season-long defensive captain in 1973 and '74. Although Carter hasn't been inducted into the Packers Hall of Fame, he has been discussed as a possible candidate on several occasions.
On starting as a rookie at left linebacker: "I took Dave Robinson's place after he tore his Achilles' tendon. I was drafted as a linebacker, but I never played defense in college."
On playing for Phil Bengtson, Vince Lombardi's former defensive coach and successor, who would be fired as head coach after the 1970 season: "Good guy. Good defense. But he had a whiskey problem. Every night in training camp at those meetings, he'd be drunk. He'd go to that coaches' 5 o'clock club (in the basement of Sensenbrenner Hall at St. Norbert College), and he'd come in staggering. He was an old Minnesota guy and he was nice enough to me. But from my standpoint, he was hard to talk to. He wasn't a great communicator. I think he was a decent defensive coach."
On whether Bengtson's drinking was an issue during the regular season: "I never noticed it. We met in the morning and during the day. I just noticed it in training camp. Of course, a lot of us (players) used to go to (our own) 5 o'clock club (at bars in De Pere) and drink as many beers as fast as we could before we went to dinner."
On Bengtson's presence and delivery in meetings: "Terrible. I'm sure he was shy, plus he didn't have a fluid way of speaking anyway so it wasn't ever very good. I don't remember any pre-game speeches, but he would have had a helluva time getting it out. I don't remember Phil liking to do much with meetings. There were a lot less meetings when Phil was there than when (Dan) Devine was there."
On whether veterans compared Bengtson to Lombardi, who had a larger-than-life presence and powerful delivery when speaking to the team: "I don't remember too much about that. You know (Ray) Nitschke and Robbie – Willie Wood was still there. Doug Hart, Gordon Rule, Lionel (Aldridge) were still there. They all knew (Bengtson) and trusted him. But I don't remember him being around the defense that much considering he was such a defensive specialist. All I remember is Hawgie (defensive line coach Dave Hanner) running it. And there was no true linebacker coach."
On quarterback Bart Starr's shoulder issues and the Packers' losing record in 1970, the second in three years following Lombardi's departure: "He couldn't throw. He came back, but he couldn't throw a turn-out. You know who could always throw was Zeke (Bratkowski). He had a cannon of an arm. He used to throw in practice and he could really throw it." (Note: Bratkowski, Starr's backup from late in the 1963 season through 1968, was offensive backfield coach in 1969 and '70 after retiring as a player. In 1971, Bratkowski resumed his playing career for one more season.).
On his play after being moved to middle linebacker to replace Nitschke before his second season: "No, I didn't play very well. I played as well as I could, but never having played that position until the pros, that's a hard way to start in. So I struggled most of that year. Actually, the second year I don't think I played that well, either. My third and fourth years (in the middle), I had really good years."
On being the object of boobirds at Lambeau Field, especially from 1971-72 when Nitschke was still on the team and sitting the bench: "An average player like I was is not going to measure up to an all-pro guy. Even if I had pretty good seasons, I still wasn't going to match up to Ray. Ray was a great player. You have to give him that, and he had a better supporting cast. We weren't very good."
On where he fell short, whether it was misdiagnosing plays, missing tackles or whatever: "All of that. Everything that came along was new and I didn't adjust well to it, plus the stress of the Nitschke (stuff). I'm sure all of it combined. But I never got yanked out of a game or Hawg never came and said that was awful or terrible. It just wasn't up to the standard that we needed, or at least that's how I remember it. I think I picked up the mental part of it because I (was) bright enough."
On how Nitschke treated him as a young player: "Looking at it from his perspective, he thought he could still play. There wasn't much question in his mind or anybody else's that when I took his place, I didn't beat him out. They gave me the job. There's no bull-------- anybody about that. They just figured I'd be able to do it eventually. I'm sure that was their thinking. And they wanted to get started with it. They were rebuilding anyway. So he was (upset). And I guess if I'd have been him, I would have been, too."
On whether Nitschke spoke to him or ever offered any tips about his play: "Not much. We didn't talk much. If I asked him something, he'd say something. But it was all backdoor taking shots. He had a book a few years ago and he took a few shots, I thought, at me. He had it his way for a long time and the fans loved him. He played it pretty well. He'd stretch on the sideline and then he'd finally go in the game and they'd all go crazy."
On how the other defensive players treated him: "I had a lot of good support from them with the stuff with Nitschke, like when he'd come into a game and I'd go out, and (the fans) would all cheer. When I started getting booed, all the players – the defense and the offense, too – were real supportive. They all thought it was (unfair). And they didn't hear it as much as I did. To me, if one guy was booing out of 60,000, I'd hear him. It wasn't like the whole place was booing. But it was enough where it got to me and made it hard for me. But the players were real supportive. Part of it was they didn't like Nitschke, either. So they supported me from that standpoint. I got along with everybody on that defense and for a couple years it was all Black (players). I was the only white guy on the defense."
On Robinson, a future Pro Football Hall of Fame linebacker, taking him under his wing: "Dave Robinson was a helluva player. I never saw a guy who could move his feet the way Robbie did. I learned a lot from Robbie just by osmosis. Real smart. Even when I got there, Robbie could still play. Even after his Achilles, he missed a few steps. But brilliant. He had everything figured out. He moved his feet. A lot of guys don't bring their feet with them and miss by overextending. Robbie always had his feet under him, and he was always moving his feet. The great players do that. And he was so smart."
On the backing he received from Hanner, the assistant coach in charge of the defense: "He was really good to me, treated me really fairly. I've always felt bad that in the end – he wanted that job bad (the head coaching job after Dan Devine) – and, at that time, I didn't think he was qualified and he probably wasn't. But out of pure loyalty, as good as he was to me, I should have done more for him, in hindsight. Hawg treated me great."
On what he regretted not doing when Hanner and Starr were the only two candidates for the head coaching position in 1975 after Devine was forced out: "Talk to somebody. Put in a good word instead of just staying on the sideline. I'm sure at that point, he needed people to put in a good word for him. But I think it would have been hard for him to get the job."
On his first impression of Devine after he had been hired to replace Bengtson as head coach and general manager following the 1970 season: "I remember sitting in that first meeting when Devine was talking. He was giving his pitch about being new and what he was going to do. I was sitting next to Donny (Anderson). (Devine) talked for about an hour. You know Devine, he'd go forever; and after it was over, I leaned over to Donny and said, 'He's crazy.'"
On how long it took for most of the team to catch on to Devine: "Like I said, the first night I heard him, I knew he was full of it. It didn't take long at all. You know how players are. Especially, he kept showing that Missouri film (from his years as a college coach) and that p----- everybody off. He used to show Mel Gray returning kicks. Johnny Roland who was with us (as an assistant coach). Johnny was a good guy, but I'm sure he was embarrassed about it. And Jon Staggers. He used to show Staggers (in his college film) and then he brought Staggers in (as a wide receiver). I don't know why Devine did that. To show college stuff just irked everybody. Those were some crazy years, those Devine years. All the politics. Half the board of directors on his side and half against. Hawgie was one way, Devine another."
On how the Packers won the NFC Central Division in 1972 with a 10-4 record under Devine and whether he agreed with many of his teammates who claimed they won in spite of Devine: "Well, we had some pretty good players. That was amazing (winning under Devine). Bart was there (as an offensive assistant). (Quarterback Scott) Hunter had a helluva year. Brock (John Brockington) had a helluva year. Mac (MacArthur Lane) was there. Robbie was still there. We had a good defense."
On where the leadership came from if it wasn't the head coach: "The leaders on the team: Robbie was a real leader and I know he didn't like (Devine) a bit."
On why Devine traded Robinson after the 1972 season: "Too smart. Robbie had him figured out and he didn't shy away. He was talking all the time."
On the strengths of the defense in '72: "Bob Brown was a good defensive tackle. The secondary was good. It was (Jim) Hill and (Ken) Ellis. Willie Buchanon was another great player."
On Brown, who was a monstrous 6-foot-5 in those days and close to 300 pounds and maybe more at times: "He was strong and quick. Bob looked like an old shoe salesman from Memphis, but that guy really had quickness. He could rush the passer. Tough, too. He was really tough."
On Mike McCoy, the second overall draft pick in 1970 and the other defensive tackle: "Mike wasn't a great player. He worked hard. He tried hard. But he was not a great player. He was better than Rich Moore (the No. 1 draft pick in 1969 who turned out to be a bust), but not as good as Bob Brown."
On defensive ends Alden Roche and Clarence Williams: "Good players. Roche was very good against the run. Cat could play the run, too. I think they were both solid. Roche was very tough. Cat, maybe not as tough as Roche, but maybe more physical ability."
On Fred Carr, 6-5, 235, the fifth overall pick by Lombardi in the 1968 draft and the starting outside linebacker opposite Robinson: "Just a natural. No idea what he was doing. Didn't know which way he was supposed to go. But he had such talent. He could run like an antelope. Good hands. He made so many plays with that natural ability. Dumb as a rock. Good guy, though."
On cornerbacks Buchanon and Ellis: "Ellis could cover. He could run. Wouldn't hit. Buchanon could do both. That's why Buchanon was so much better than Ellis. Buchanon not only could run as fast as Ellis, but he'd hit you. He'd come up and force, and do all that."
On strong safety Al Matthews: "I thought Matthews was a good defensive back. He was tough and he could hit. He wasn't as fast as the other three, but he was tougher than (free safety Jim) Hill. Didn't have the range that Hill had. No, Hill wouldn't hit anybody. But neither did (Minnesota's) Paul Krause and he's in the Hall of Fame."
On Don Doll: "Don Doll was a helluva coach – the secondary coach."
On what might have prompted Devine to fire Doll a year later: "I think (Doll) told Devine the truth. Don wasn't an ---kisser, he was just a good football man. I think he saw all that B.S. and told Devine (off). I liked Don."
On whether he knew during the playoff loss to Washington in 1972 that Devine took over the play-calling from Starr: "No, I didn't. I heard it later."
On crossing the picket line during the 1974 players' strike and how much bitterness it caused with his teammates: "I had trouble with (Larry) McCarren for a couple years. He and I were friends before that and we've been friends since then. (Larry) Hefner and I went to camp, and (the other veterans) came back like a week later or whatever it was. The first day we had a scrimmage and I took on McCarren a couple times, we had a tough time for a couple years. (Outside linebacker) Tom MacLeod and I never got along after that. He was a strong union guy. Today, I'd never do it again. But back then, I wasn't even involved in one side or the other, I just wanted to play."
On the collapse from division champs in 1972 to 5-7-2 in 1973 to 6-8 in 1974 and near mutiny among the players, which led to Devine's ouster after the season: "I don't know why it went so downhill after that. We had a lot of the same players. I think Bart probably helped that year (as quarterbacks coach). I think he helped with Scott Hunter. Hunter had a pretty good year."
On whether Devine, by awarding some players with loyalty bonuses to defend him in the locker room and with the media, divided the team and created the dissension himself: "That could have been. Either that or the guys who gave up on him later on hadn't yet. I don't know. It was definitely before he started paying. I think Devine was one of those guys who was scared to death. I think he lived in fear of being found out. I think he knew he was a phony, too. Plus, he was a pathological liar so everything he lied about, he had to cover those lies with more lies. That's hard to live with."
On how often Devine held team meetings: "All the time. It didn't make much sense to me. He was just yammering. It was just mostly babble."
On whether he agreed with the assistant coaches and players who claimed Devine knew next to nothing about the Xs and Os of the game: "He was a bull-------. He must have been a good operator. Look at the jobs he got: Arizona State, Missouri, Green Bay, Notre Dame, back to Arizona State as a fundraiser."
On whether the friction among executive committee members and on the coaching staff worsened over time and what the players knew about it: "I think it had been building. The politics. I remember I was with (executive committee member) Tony Canadeo, Hawgie, (executive committee vice president) Dick Bourguignon and they were in that (anti-Devine) camp. That's where I was and a lot of us were there. But there was also the MacArthur Lane group. I assume (Ted) Hendricks. It was a big, divided split. I don't remember it all, but there was (turmoil) going on all the time. Some big brouhaha would come up and it always splintered off that political (stuff) with Devine."
On whether Canadeo and Bourguignon discussed their contempt for Devine with the players: "Oh yeah. I used to see Tony and (his wife) Ruthie all the time. We'd see them over at the Fireside, that fish place not far from where Zeke and Bart lived. We got to be friends. We talked the same stuff. Tony hated Devine. (Canadeo) and Hawgie were tight. And (film director) Al Treml was part of that because Al and Hawgie were buddies. (Assistant coach) Red (Cochran) hated (Devine)."
On the effect all of that had on the locker room: "We had a big fight in the locker room over that thing: Guys that were on Devine's side and guys who thought he was full of (it). We had a standoff one day in the locker room. It almost came to fisticuffs. Mac Lane and I almost got into it. He was for Devine and he was going around the locker room with some card that people were supposed to sign. Something like, 'You're our guy.' I said, 'I'm not signing that.' We really got into it. As a matter of fact, it ruined our relationship. Mac and I were pretty good friends. He was a tough guy. After that, he didn't have time for me and I didn't really have time for him. I feel bad about that to this day. It was all because of the Devine stuff."
On playing with two of the most talented and carefree outside linebackers in the history of pro football in 1974: future Pro Football Hall of Famer Hendricks and Carr, a three-time Pro Bowl pick: "Those guys could drink. Those two were crazy. I always liked Freddie. I didn't get along great with Hendricks. I didn't especially like him. They were good linebackers and they could play. They always were there: practice and games. I don't know if they drank the night before games. But what I mean is they always showed up. They always were playing hard. They chased the streets together. Those two fell in love with each other. They were non-stop."
On Hendricks, who was 6-7, 220, and had one of the greatest defensive seasons in Packers history in 1974, intercepting a team-high five passes and blocking an NFL-record seven kicks: "He not only had that long reach, but he was strong. He was amazingly strong and he had great instincts. And even though he didn't appear to be because he was so big, he was fast and quick. And he was brilliant. A really smart guy. He never took people on. Big and strong and made great plays without taking people on. Freddie, too. Freddie could take you on. He did more than Hendricks. But Freddie had great reach and the ability to avoid people and still make great plays."
On how common it was for players back then to get done with practice and head out to the bars together for something to do in Green Bay: "Even guys who didn't drink came. Like Brock. He'd drink orange juice. A couple others. There were a few straight-arrows who didn't come. Big Mike (McCoy) never came, but just about everybody else."
On their favorite gathering spots back then: "I remember training camp was Buck's (in De Pere, near St. Norbert College). I think we moved around a couple of places. I remember Freddie, Tim Moresco, a bunch of us went to that place down from Denil Cadillac (probably what was then Ted's Club on S. Washington St.). We'd always meet there. Freddie and I used to always go there. And (Tommy) Crutcher used to stay at The Downtowner (Motel). So we'd meet him downtown. We never went to the places the old guys, the Super Bowl guys, the Lombardi guys went. We kind of skirted around and went to other places."
On whether that changed as the team became more divided under Devine: "Yeah. It was that divided. It was bad."
On how veteran quarterback John Hadl fit in after being acquired at the trade deadline in 1974: "Hadl was great. He didn't like Devine much at all. He knew he was full of (it) right away. But Devine had paid so much for him. Hadl came in and he was embarrassed about it. But right from the beginning, he was a great guy about it. He laughed about it. The first day Hadl came to camp, we went out and had drinks. It was the guys who always went out and had drinks. I'm sure it was Gillie (guard Gale Gillingham). I don't know who else. But Hadl and I and a bunch of people sat around a table and John said to me, 'You know what you and I have in common at this table that nobody else has?' I said, 'No, what?' 'Each of us has had a home crowd of more than 50,000 people boo us.' That was the way he introduced himself to me. He had been booed at home and knew about the Nitschke stuff. So we were like that from then on."
On whether Hadl's arm was shot: "That was pretty clear. It wasn't his fault, though. We didn't think of him as a savior. But I think everybody liked Hadl. He was one of the guys. He'd go drink with the offensive line. Some quarterbacks are above that."
On the stance Gillingham – perennial all-pro guard and offensive captain – took, regarding Devine: "He hated Devine. So you know if he did, so did all the offensive linemen."
On the Packers' losing their final three games in 1974 by a combined score of 53-23 against opponents, none of which finished with a winning record: "That was the year we played the last game in Atlanta. We didn't even go out on the field and warm up. It was raining. We didn't warm up. We went underneath the stands and kind of stretched. It was a mess."
On the two previous losses to Philadelphia and San Francisco, and then some players talking about boycotting the final game to ensure that Devine would be fired after it: "You know what else happened. It wasn't the Atlanta game, but after one of those games we got beat, somebody started saying something in the locker room, and I called a bunch of guys out because they quit. I said, 'Some of you quit today.' Gillie interrupted me and said, 'I agree with you, but I'm not one of those who quit.' We're hollering across the locker room. We had a bunch of guys dead – quit on us. It was so obvious. It wasn't that they were just throwing (the games). But some threw in the towel, no doubt." (Note: Gillingham was the Packers' offensive captain and Carter, the defensive captain, that year.)
On the reaction of players when Starr was hired to replace Devine as head coach: "I think we were excited about the change. But as much as I like and respect Bart, it wasn't the answer, obviously. I've talked to Bart since about it. I told him that I felt bad that I couldn't have been more help to him as a coach because I was kind of a locker room lawyer even when Bart was there. I said, 'I just don't feel great about my time in Green Bay.' He said that was how he felt about his coaching career. He feels embarrassed about his performance. That's how I feel, too. It wasn't because he wasn't trying. He was a good man and honest, but things were pretty (messed) up around there."
On whether the team was still divided under Starr: "All that stuff cooled after that. That wasn't prevalent when Bart was there. We didn't win and were struggling to rebuild the thing, but there wasn't that crap like under Devine. Nothing like that."
On Starr trading for quarterback Lynn Dickey and giving up on Hadl: "Dickey was a good man. Dickey could play. I liked Dickey."
On Starr's two young assistant defensive coaches John Meyer, who became the Packers' defensive coordinator in 1980, and Dick LeBeau, who became a longtime coordinator and head coach elsewhere in the league: "Meyer was a pretty smart guy and a pretty good defensive coach. He (Meyer) was pushing even when Hawg was there to do a lot more stunts. You know Hawgie stuck with that old defense that Bengtson had. We stuck in that man coverage or man-to-man with a free safety and everybody else had gone zone and was doing a lot of blitzes. We didn't do much at all and Meyer was always pushing for more. Meyer had a good football mind. I think Bart knew that and I don't know how involved Dick was in all that."
Carter died in 2023 at age 75. The above excerpts were taken from an interview conducted in 2010.
